Punishing whiffed Ryu's cr. MK with Guile

A very frequent poke used by Ryu player is cr. MK xx Hadoken.   I am a Guile player, is there any way to punish whiffed cr. MK?

 

I saw articles on the web mentioning about staying just outside Ryu's cr. MK sweep range, then once he's in the recovery animation, move in an do a cr. MK to punish.   However, I couldn't seems to pull this off in training mode and Ryu's recovery frame is too fast.  

 

Any advice or other ways to punish it?

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created Mar 27 '10 @ 11:33 by:

ppking123
Rep: 181


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Here is the frame data for Ryu's crouching medium kick:

 

Move Startup Active Recover
Crouching MK 5 5 12

 

When the cr.MK connects, the frame data is of no consequence; unless your opponent's execution is bad, they will always cancel into a fireball.

However, in the case outlined by your question, it becomes very important.  At worst, you will have 12 frames to initiate a move which will hit him.

That being said, let's take a look the frame data for Guile's cr.MK and cr.HK (emphasis mine):

 

Move Startup Active Recover
Crouching MK 7 4 14
Crouching HK 6 4 (20) 4 17

 

The startup of his cr.MK is 7 frames, while the startup of his cr.HK is less than the cr.MK at 6 frames.  Those would easily hit Ryu in his recovery frames if you were in range, and at worst, have to be executed no more than 5 frames into his recovery.  While that's only 1/12 of a second to react (1 frame = 1/60 second), it still does allow for some time to react.

Some might make the argument that you might have 17 (5 active + 12 recovery) frames to react.  This is technically true if you know Ryu will whiff.  However, during the 5 active frames, you have to take into account everyone's hitboxes, and you can't guarantee that your move will have priority and hit him cleanly during his active frames.

With that in mind, you could expand the discussion further by adding in the startup frames, but it would be a moot point.  Assuming that you need one frame to actually identify the cr.MK, you would have 4 frames left before your move is active (in order to cleanly hit Ryu).  Unfortunately, none of Guile's moves start up fast enough and have the range to counter a whiffed cr.MK from Ryu.

In ending, Guile's cr.MK or cr.HK should always be able to punish Ryu's whiffed cr.MK, as long as you can execute within 5 frames of the beginning of his recovery.  While it might not seem like much, it's not impossible (just look at one-frame-links).

2

created Mar 31 '10 @ 22:21 by:

casperOne ♦
Rep: 2159


Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation - your reply also helps me understand how to read frame data better (along with taking hitboxes into account of course)

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created Apr 1 '10 @ 13:33 by:

ppking123
Rep: 181

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